
The BLK SHP Bible Talk Episode: They Found It in a Cave: The Isaiah Scroll
“I’m going to tell you a story that’s as frustrating as it is heartbreaking. It’s the story of how generations of faithful YHVH-worshippers came so close to seeing the Messiah yet still missed him.
They didn’t miss him because the evidence wasn’t there. It was always there. There’s a scroll sitting in a museum in Jerusalem. It was copied before Jesus of Nazareth was born. And what it says about the Messiah is something the rabbis spent a thousand years trying not to talk about. The ancient Jewish scholars knew something their own descendants were never told.
2,000 years of Jewish scholarship contain a portrait of the Messiah so specific that it names his birthplace.
It describes his death, and it fixes the century of his arrival. I’m talking about ancient Jewish writings. Some of them you may have heard of. Maybe you’ve even read some of them. The Talmud and the Midrash, the Targams, the Zohar, the sacred libraries the rabbis themselves
built. And somewhere between 1096 AD and 1,200 AD, about a thousand years ago, what that library said about the Messiah got buried. Not out of deception, I don’t think, but out of grief”.
Hazan Gavriel ben David – Response
I watched the episode “They Found It in a Cave, and It Turned Modern Judaism Upside Down.” The host presents a long list of pre-Christian Jewish sources that he claims clearly describe a suffering, dying, and rising individual Messiah who matches Jesus. He argues that the collective reading of Isaiah 53 is a later invention forced on the Jewish people by trauma and polemic.
I would like to first ask a few questions to the viewers of BLK. Do you want to know the truth, or are you just going along like everyone else in the world, following Rome’s orders?
The Christian Bible has nothing to do with the Hebrew Bible. The Bible is a Greek word; it was originally called the Tanach and was later given its name by the Greeks. In Greek, the Bible means the Tanach/Book.
A Book Like No Other Makes A Point
Rabbi David Fohrman opens his A Book Like No Other series on the Garden of Eden with several simple but devastating questions about the scene itself:
- Why are there two special trees in the center of the Garden — the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil — when God only mentions one in the command?
- Why does God command Adam to eat from all the trees of the Garden (including the Tree of Life), yet after eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, He suddenly guards the Tree of Life as if it had never been available?
- Why does Eve tell the snake that “the tree in the middle of the Garden” is forbidden, when Genesis 2:9 places the Tree of Life in the middle?
- Why did Hashem not tell Adam about the Tree of Life?
- Where is the Tree of Life?
- Why did Hashem create something that has no use in the world?
These are not minor details. They are the Torah’s way of forcing us to look at the actual blueprint. The anomalies are the message.
Adam Did Not Know About The Tree of Life
Now ask yourself the same question the Torah forces us to ask:
How did we get from the Garden to questions about Jesus?
How did a story about two trees, a command to eat from all of them, a tempter who told the truth about consequences, and a path that was never lost become a story about inherited total depravity, a divine blood sacrifice, and a dying-and-rising individual Messiah?
This is the rewrite of the blueprint.
Isaiah 53 and Zephaniah 3: “No Iniquity in Their Mouth”
Christian teachers frequently isolate Isaiah 53:9 — “because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth” — as proof of a sinless individual Messiah. But the prophets themselves connect this language directly to the righteous remnant of Israel.
Look at Zephaniah 3:13 (in the same prophetic tradition):
“The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.”
This is the exact same phrasing as Isaiah 53:9. The servant who has “no deceit in his mouth” is the faithful remnant of Israel that emerges purified after judgment. They are the ones who will dwell securely, feeding and lying down in peace — classic end-time restoration language for the nation and its righteous core.
Rambam (Maimonides) on Jesus
Jesus of Nazareth, who aspired to be the Mashiach and was executed by the court, was also alluded to in Daniel’s prophecies, as ibid. 11:14 states: “The vulgar among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.”
Can there be a greater stumbling block than Christianity? All the prophets spoke of Mashiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior who would gather their dispersed and strengthen their observance of the mitzvot. In contrast, Christianity caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humbled, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the Lord.
Jeremiah 19 O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
20 Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?
21 Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is The Lord.
Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts. Ultimately, all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite [Muhammad] who arose after him will only serve to prepare the way for Mashiach’s coming and the improvement of the entire world, motivating the nations to serve God together as Zephaniah 3:9 states: “I will transform the peoples to a purer language so that they all will call upon the name of God and serve Him with one purpose.”
How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with the mention of Mashiach, Torah, and mitzvot… When the true Messianic king arises and proves successful, his position becomes exalted and uplifted, and they will all return and realize that their ancestors bestowed upon them a false heritage and that their prophets and ancestors caused them to err.
The Rambam Makes His Point
The Rambam, in Mishneh Torah (Hilchot Melachim u’Milchamot 11:4), addresses claims about Jesus directly and rejects them firmly. He writes that Jesus was not the Messiah, but rather one who caused Israel to go astray and the world to err by interpreting the Torah incorrectly and leading people away from the commandments.
Maimonides states that Jesus and Muhammad were not true redeemers but instruments that ultimately helped spread knowledge of the Torah to the nations — paving the way for the true Messiah — yet they themselves failed to meet the criteria for the Messiah outlined in the Torah and the Prophets.
Rambam emphasizes that the true Messiah will be a king from the house of David who compels all Israel to walk in the ways of the Torah, fights God’s wars, gathers the exiles, rebuilds the Temple, and brings universal peace and knowledge of God. Jesus did none of these things. The Rambam’s clear, systematic analysis in the Mishneh Torah shows that Christian claims about Jesus as Messiah have no foundation in the original Hebrew sources.
I will address every major claim using the method from my book, Adam, the Blueprint of Creation and the Tree of Life (Dr. Robert Carter’s four questions applied to religious claims) and Jay Smith’s historical method (earliest sources, timing, continuity, and archaeology). I will also bring the actual Talmudic and rabbinic sources that the host cited, along with the counter-tradition from our sages.
1. Claim: Isaiah 53 clearly describes an individual suffering Messiah (singular pronouns in the Dead Sea Scrolls prove it)
The host’s argument: The Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsa-a) from Qumran uses singular pronouns throughout (“he was wounded,” “he was cut off,” etc.). This proves the original Jewish understanding was individual, not collective.
Response:
Example: How Christian Interpretation Changes Isaiah 53
Here is a clear, side-by-side comparison of Isaiah 53:5–6, one of the most-quoted passages. This shows the original Hebrew, a literal translation that preserves the collective voice, and how Christian theology effectively rewrites the meaning by changing who is speaking.
1. Original Hebrew (Isaiah 53:5–6)
וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲוֹנֹתֵינוּ
מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא־לָנוּ׃
כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן תָּעִינוּ אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ פָּנִינוּ
וַיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ אֵת עֲוֹן כֻּלָּנוּ׃
2. Literal English Translation (Preserving the Original Voice)
But he was pierced because of our transgressions,
crushed because of our iniquities.
The chastisement of our peace was upon him,
and by his wound we were healed.
All of us like sheep have gone astray;
each one to his own way we have turned,
and the Lord has caused to fall upon him
the iniquity of all of us.
Key point: The speakers are saying “we” and “our”. They are confessing that they went astray and that the servant suffered because of their sins. In context, the speakers are the nations (or those outside Israel) speaking about Israel (the servant).
3. How Christian Interpretation Changes the Meaning
In most Christian teaching, preaching, and study Bibles, this passage is presented as if it is only about Jesus, and the “we/our” is reassigned to mean Christians or believers:
Christian Presentation (Typical Interpretation):
“Jesus was wounded for our transgressions…
by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray…”
What this does:
- It removes the original speakers (the nations confessing about Israel).
- It makes the reader assume they are the “we” who went astray and that Jesus is the individual servant who died for them.
- It turns a national, collective passage into a purely individual, personal atonement story.
This is not a small shift in emphasis. It fundamentally changes who is speaking and who the servant represents.
Summary of the Change
| Element | Original Hebrew Meaning | Common Christian Interpretation | Effect of the Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Who is speaking? | The nations (or those outside Israel) | Christians / believers | Removes the national context |
| Who is the servant? | Israel / the righteous remnant | Exclusively Jesus | Turns collective suffering into individual |
| “We / Our” | The nations confessing their own sin | Reassigned to Christians | Changes the identity of the guilty party |
| Overall message | Nations recognize Israel’s suffering role | Personal salvation through Jesus’ death | Replaces national restoration with individual atonement |
This pronoun and contextual shift are one of the clearest examples of how the original Hebrew blueprint was rewritten. The text itself was not heavily altered in most translations, but the meaning and speakers were reassigned to fit a completely different theological story.
This is the same pronoun-shift tactic we see across Christian interpretation. The chapter is written from the perspective of the nations speaking about Israel as a collective servant. The “we” and “our” language throughout makes this clear:
- “Surely he has borne our griefs…”
- “We all like sheep have gone astray…”
- “The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
The Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah
The Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah Scroll does contain singular forms in many places, but it is not a perfect manuscript. It has numerous scribal errors, omissions, and variants. One well-known issue is that it appears to have been buried or stored in a way consistent with damaged or erroneous scrolls containing the Divine Name (a practice reflected in later Jewish handling of sacred texts). The host presents it as pristine proof. It is not.
The passage that contains the words HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, only contains (2) HOLY, HOLY. (Isaiah 6:3)
More importantly, even if the pronouns are singular in some manuscripts, the chapter’s context (the suffering servant bringing justice to the nations, the nations confessing their error about him) has been read nationally by Jewish interpreters for centuries. Rabbi Tovia Singer and Yehuda Israel have addressed this verse by verse on their channels, showing that the national reading is the plain sense.
2. Claim: Pre-Christian sources (Talmud, Zohar, Midrash, Targum) clearly teach a suffering/dying Messiah ben Joseph who rises
The host’s argument: Sanhedrin 98b calls the Messiah a “leper scholar” from Isaiah 53. The Zohar, Midrash Rabbah, and Targum Jonathan support the idea of a suffering figure. Messiah ben Joseph is pierced, atones, and rises.
Response (using actual sources):
- Sanhedrin 98b: The passage does mention a “leper scholar” in connection with Isaiah 53:4 in one opinion. However, this is one view among many in the Talmud. The same tractate and others present multiple opinions about the Messiah. There is no consensus that Isaiah 53 refers to a dying individual Messiah who rises on the third day.
- Messiah ben Joseph: This is a real tradition in some sources (e.g., certain midrashim and later Zohar passages). However, it is not the dominant or universal view, and it is often tied to a figure who fights in the final war and dies, not necessarily the primary Davidic Messiah who brings final redemption. The host presents it as the clear pre-Christian portrait. It is one thread among several.
- Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 52:13 does say “my servant the Messiah shall prosper,” but the Targumim frequently add interpretive layers. They do not prove that the plain text of Isaiah 53 was originally understood as a dying-and-rising individual.
The host repeatedly dismisses Rashi. Yet Rashi’s reading of Isaiah 53 as Israel is consistent with earlier sources and with the national-suffering theme that runs throughout the Tanakh (e.g., the servant songs in Isaiah, the corporate nature of Israel’s covenant). Our sages did not need the Church Fathers or later trauma to read the text this way.
3. Claim: The collective reading of Isaiah 53 is a late polemic (Rashi changed after the Crusades, Maimonides disqualified a dying Messiah)
Response:
This is historically inaccurate and selective.
- The national/collective reading of the servant songs appears in sources before the major traumas the host mentions. It is consistent with the overall biblical theme of Israel suffering on behalf of the nations and being vindicated.
- Maimonides (Rambam), in the Mishneh Torah and in his Epistle to Yemen, does emphasize a victorious, non-dying Messiah in his primary portrait. However, he was responding to the specific claims of Christianity and Islam in his time. He was not “hiding” an earlier Jewish belief in a dying Messiah. Rambam also addresses claims about Jesus in his writings on Daniel and elsewhere, rejecting them on textual and historical grounds.
- The idea that the collective reading was invented as a response to Christianity ignores that Jewish interpreters were reading the text nationally long before the major debates intensified.
Rabbi Tovia Singer has documented extensively how the Church Fathers (Justin Martyr, Origen, etc.) engaged in these debates and how the Christian reading developed. The host’s timeline is selective.
4. Claim: The Dead Sea Scrolls and other pre-Christian sources prove that the portrait of Jesus was already in Judaism
Response (Jay Smith method + Dr. Carter’s questions):
Using Jay Smith’s approach (earliest sources, timing, continuity, archaeology):
- The Great Isaiah Scroll is pre-Christian. That is true. However, the existence of a scroll does not prove that the interpretation the host gives it was the dominant or only Jewish reading.
- Many of the sources the host cites (certain Zohar passages, later midrashim) are post-Temple or even medieval. The host blurs the line between pre-Christian and later Jewish mystical traditions.
- Applying Dr. Robert Carter’s four questions to this claim:
- How did the host arrive at this unified portrait? By selecting certain passages and downplaying the diversity of opinion in the sources.
- What does the full picture show? The sources show multiple, sometimes conflicting, expectations. There was no single, clear “suffering-dying-rising Messiah ben Joseph who matches Jesus” portrait universally accepted before Christianity.
- Was there enough time and continuity? The Christian reading develops and solidifies in the centuries after Jesus, especially as the movement separates from Judaism.
- Does the rewrite match the original blueprint? No. The Torah’s consistent message is national covenant, repentance, and return — not inherited total depravity requiring a divine blood sacrifice.
5. Broader Pattern: The Rewrite of the Blueprint
This episode follows the same pattern I document in Adam, the Blueprint of Creation, and the Tree of Life, and in the “Two Sides of the Same Coin” series on beithashoavah.org:
- The original Hebrew blueprint teaches that humanity is created fundamentally good (99% good).
- The path to the Tree of Life (Torah) remains open through teshuvah.
- Suffering can be redemptive on a national and personal level without requiring a one-time divine sacrifice to fix “original sin.”
Christianity (and this podcast’s presentation) rewrites that blueprint. It turns national suffering into an individual’s atoning death, changes the nature of the problem (from choice and covenant to inherited depravity), and replaces the Tree of Life with the cross.
Paul’s role in this development has been addressed in my blogs and by others (including channels like History Valley). The shift toward a more Hellenistic, individual-focused soteriology has roots in the Roman world in which early Christianity developed.
The Invitation – Bring the Receipts
I am asking you directly, as I have asked others:
Please respond. Write me or record a conversation. Bring the actual Talmudic and midrashic sources in full context. Show where the plain text of Isaiah 53, read according to the rules of Hebrew grammar and the surrounding chapters, requires an individual dying-and-rising Messiah.
Rabbi Tovia Singer, Yehuda Israel, and many others have already addressed these exact claims with the sources. The collective/national reading is not a late invention forced by trauma. It is a legitimate and ancient reading of the text.
The original blueprint preserved by the Jewish people for over 3,300 years — in the text and in our lineage (Kohanim marker, Abrahamic DNA continuity) — tells a different story.
The Tree of Life was never lost. The path of teshuvah and tzedakah u’mishpat remains open.
From the Garden to Isaiah 53 – How Did We Get Here?
Next Blog coming
I am ready when you are.
— Gavriel















